Simple Analytics

Automated transcript

Bart Sprenkels (00:00):

Welcome and it’s great that you’re watching or listening to this new episode of Van Start tot Ster. This is the video podcast of Onderneming Panel where I speak with experienced and successful entrepreneurs, with the goal of learning as much as possible as a starting entrepreneur. Today at my table is someone others describe as a serial entrepreneur. I’ll later ask him if he identifies with that and what it really means. But he is very impressive and, above all, very open about working on a company called Simple Analytics. It’s a competitor to Google Analytics, where you can measure who is on your website and which pages they visit in a privacy-safe way. And what I find especially interesting is the way he builds it, his mindset about entrepreneurship and, of course, the substance of the companies. So today here in our studio, Iron Brands Iron. Welcome!

Iron Brands (00:01):

Yes, thanks! And thanks for the intro!

Bart Sprenkels (00:01):

Yeah, no problem.

Iron Brands (00:01):

Competitor to Google Analytics. Nice! I believe so. I don’t know if they already know we exist, so we’re not that big yet. But how many users do you have? Uh, well, I think we now have around 1,400 paying customers, but we’ve also just launched a free plan, and that is getting close to 15,000 users who are now using it on their website.

Bart Sprenkels (00:02):

Has it recently reached 15,000?

Iron Brands (00:02):

We already had some users who were using it for free in a certain way, but now we have really launched it and started pushing it. And now you can see that. Yeah, it really stopped many people from supporting the idea that we were going to compete with Google Analytics – that it was a free product – and we were going to charge for it, plus you can do a lot less with it.

Bart Sprenkels (00:02):

And that was the pitch. Thanks for watching.

Iron Brands (00:02):

That was a tough pitch, and now we see that we’ve made a version that we’ve kind of, well, capped in terms of what you can do with it, but which we can still offer as a sort of free version to users. And then you see that, oh yeah, people are quite willing to test it, use it, and see if they want to replace Google Analytics.

Bart Sprenkels (00:02):

Yeah, your competitors are very modest. In another interview I saw of you, you mentioned that you haven’t yet taken any market share from them.

Iron Brands (00:03):

No. Yeah, I think if you look at the analytics market – like a pie chart – you see that 90% of the websites using an analytics tool are still on Google Analytics. And I think we’re at 0.0001%. That’s a very small share of the market.

Bart Sprenkels (00:03):

Yeah, but still a whole load of users.

Iron Brands (00:03):

Yes. Definitely. And it’s heading in the right direction. And it’s growing very fast. And well, we’re just the two of us, so you don’t need, uh, 10% of the market share to run a good business.

Bart Sprenkels (00:03):

What I really appreciate is that you’re very open about having a goal. With you I actually learned the term “Erg”. I looked it up, because you share on LinkedIn how much revenue your companies are making. And Simple Analytics is at – I have it noted as – $414,000 ARR, and ARR is annual recurring revenue.

Bart Sprenkels (00:04):

Yeah, exactly.

Iron Brands (00:04):

Recurring revenue. And what’s the goal?

Bart Sprenkels (00:04):

1 million. Yeah, that’s the goal. And then we also went back a bit, because Adriaan actually started Simple Analytics. He’s my partner – a developer and, let’s say, a privacy enthusiast. And five years ago he just ran into the problem that everyone kept pasting Google Analytics on their website left and right. And well, there are quite a few drawbacks to that, especially when you look at it from a privacy perspective. And he was like, “That can’t be right!” And it’s also incredibly complex for many people to actually use that tool. And 90% of people use only 5% of its features. So he was like, “Why can’t I just build a very simple, basic replacement for Google Analytics that still gives you the insights you want to see, but complies with all the regulations and doesn’t track everyone and everything all the time?”

Iron Brands (00:05):

Well, as some developers do when they have problems, they build a solution themselves. So he built it, and I wasn’t even on the scene yet, and then he launched it. And then many companies – and also developers with websites – came by saying, “Ah, I need this because I don’t need all that extra stuff.” And it’s true – it’s just not privacy-unfriendly, and, well, Google… we have the European regulations, and Google doesn’t really care about that. And so then the first hundred users came along who were like, “Hey, this is a pain point and you’re solving it.” And that’s how it started growing organically. I joined later, and then we agreed, “If we’re going to grow, what is our goal?”

Iron Brands (00:06):

Just say something.

Bart Sprenkels (00:06):

The target?

Iron Brands (00:06):

Basically, what would we want? And you can go off in all directions and raise funding – you see LinkedIn full of posts like, “Oh, raised so much funding!” – but ultimately, you just want to run a good business where you have the freedom to put your heart into it and make a good living. A business that fits your life and what you want to achieve. And then we asked ourselves that, and came to the conclusion: it would be really nice if we could run a business that makes 1 million. We had to come up with a number: that’s the target – 1 million per year.

Bart Sprenkels (00:07):

Yeah.

Iron Brands (00:07):

And, well, in the software business that’s actually a pretty great goal. Because software is scalable, but also hard to get off the ground. Look, if you’re making 1 million per year in a software company – and it’s just the two of us with not too many other costs – then that would be an amazing goal to achieve. So we’re almost halfway there; we’re still on track.

Bart Sprenkels (00:07):

Yeah, nice! Did you also set a timeframe?

Iron Brands (00:07):

Yes, within five years. And within five years? Well, because when I joined Adriaan, it went like this: Adriaan founded the company and grew it until he was making eight or nine thousand per month. Then it stabilized a bit. But that was because Adriaan is an engineer – he only wanted to do engineering stuff, work on the product, and definitely not deal with marketing or sales. And I had just come out of another company that I had founded – but I’ll get to that later. You probably have questions about that.

Bart Sprenkels (00:08):

Yeah, definitely.

Iron Brands (00:08):

And then I got to know Adriaan and we agreed – I once called him after a while and said, “Shouldn’t you find a business partner who handles everything except building the product, so you can focus on product development, while the business grows?” Because that growth is a necessary component: building and growing. And that growth wasn’t happening. Well, then I got involved. When he said he had reached 10K per month, we said, “Okay, it’s already at 10K per month, and from here we need to get to, what, 80K per month within five years?” And we are now at – well, it was 3435, and we’ve been at it for two years, so cool! It’s still heading in the right direction.

Bart Sprenkels (00:08):

Those are good signals too, because it’s often about validating an idea – when do you actually have something worthwhile? And if Adriaan could grow it to 10K per month just by building the product without even thinking about how to reach as many people as possible or who will use it, that’s a great sign.

Iron Brands (00:09):

10K per month. The hardest part is already done, really. Yes, in principle going from zero to one is a lot harder than going from one to ten.

Bart Sprenkels (00:09):

What was that book called again? Zero to One? Who is that by again?

Iron Brands (00:09):

Uh.

Bart Sprenkels (00:09):

Mr. Thiel?

Iron Brands (00:09):

Yes, Pieter Thiel. Zero to One. That’s the hardest part. Because there are so many… I think it’s always about trying something. I think a lot of people get stuck there. Everyone, I mean, everyone has ideas. Everyone you meet comes up with business ideas. Everyone thinks, “Oh, that would be a good business idea.” But then actually translating your idea into action – going and doing something – try to build something around that concept, and 90% of it just falls apart. And then there are those who remain and actually do something – they either create a website or build their product. And then there’s the point where, okay, that’s already something. But then try to get someone to pay for it.

Bart Sprenkels (00:10):

Yes.

Iron Brands (00:10):

And that’s it. How do you go from zero to one? And many people mess that part up, because it’s really hard. In my first business, you built something and then went to a customer and said, “This costs €1,000 per year,” and the customer said, “€1,000.” And then you think, “Oh yeah, but what do you actually do?” And how many customers do you have? We had five customers, and yeah, but it was all still in the early stages. You really have to come from a strong background to convince someone to pay for your service or product or whatever. And that’s what Adriaan managed to do.

Bart Sprenkels (00:10):

How? How so? Do you know that?

Iron Brands (00:10):

Yes. So, uh, now we’re quickly moving into the nerd corner of the internet. Okay? Briefly about Adriaan: You built it and then launched on Hacker News and Reddit – sites with huge traffic – where lots of engineers hang out sharing things. So Adriaan shared, “Hey, I’ve built this and we’re launching now, and if you want, give it a try.” And that sparked an initial spike where people said, “Wow, this is awesome.” And then our first users came along. They told other users, “I ditched Google Analytics, now I use this – you should use it too, it’s awesome.” And that’s how Adriaan got his first customers without doing any marketing, which was a signal to me that I thought, holy shit, there’s something there.

Bart Sprenkels (00:11):

Yeah, because he probably also happened to tell it to a group of people who cared about privacy and knew all the downsides of Google Analytics at the time.

Iron Brands (00:12):

But above all, he built it himself – and that’s often the best way to build a business because he encountered the problem firsthand.

Bart Sprenkels (00:12):

Yeah, for himself.

Iron Brands (00:12):

And he wanted to solve that problem for himself, because he didn’t understand why everyone kept putting Google Analytics on their website.

Bart Sprenkels (00:12):

Almost as common as WordPress hosting, Google Analytics.

Iron Brands (00:12):

Yes, and not stopping to consider what impact that has and what it means for the users visiting your website. So he ran into this problem, and he built a solution for himself. Not like, “Oh, I have an idea, I’m going to build a solution.” No, he built a solution for the problem he was facing. And eventually he shared it within a community of people just like him – because he was always hanging out on Hacker News and Reddit. So in the end, it’s kind of a natural process why Simple Analytics came into being. And I think that’s often the best way companies get started.

Bart Sprenkels (00:13):

Yeah, it’s really great. You don’t have to force ideas or products that perhaps nobody really wants.

Iron Brands (00:13):

Yeah, I think that’s often the case. I remember when I started, I just knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I didn’t care what I did, because being an entrepreneur is cool – you don’t have to work for a boss. But then, what are you going to do? “No idea.” Then you start coming up with ideas. But that isn’t the right way. You end up with things like, “Let’s build the Airbnb for cats,” and that kind of stuff. We ended up with Stage Platform because I was an intern at the time. That was the only reason Stage Platform was built. Um, but yeah. And in the end, it went pretty well.

Bart Sprenkels (00:13):

I was just about to say, I have a number here, but since you share everything so openly, that Stage Platform – which is called Fix – is active, I believe, in Amsterdam and the surrounding area. That’s where it’s mostly big.

Iron Brands (00:14):

Yeah.

Bart Sprenkels (00:14):

And it’s listed as $120,000 ARR, right?

Iron Brands (00:14):

Yeah, so it’s recurring as well. ARR is always important, because people pay monthly or yearly – usually small amounts – but when you add them up, you get a decent sum. And it comes back every year, as it should, because if customers are happy, they stick around.

Bart Sprenkels (00:14):

If they’re happy. Yeah.

Iron Brands (00:14):

Uhm. But maybe it’s nice to also share that story and how I then got involved with Simple Analytics.

Bart Sprenkels (00:14):

Let’s take one step back – you studied, right? First International Business, then Sustainable Finance. Both in Maastricht. You’re originally from Maastricht.

Iron Brands (00:14):

A beautiful city in the country.

Bart Sprenkels (00:14):

It seems so. I’ve heard that. You studied, and I’m curious how you ended up… I can imagine if you study finance, you’d go look for a job and start working. But somewhere you decided, “Entrepreneurship is cool and I want to do that.”

Iron Brands (00:15):

Yes, that's right, but that finance study had partly to do with it. Because, you know, I come from Maastricht and I've always been someone who followed the traditional path. So I went to high school. I did VWO. Then it was expected that you would go to university. Well, then we study. Then you do international business. Nice and broad, because then you don't have any

Bart Sprenkels (00:15):

Choices.

Iron Brands (00:15):

to decide, no real choices to make. And after that? Then it went, “Oh shit, you have to make a choice, right?” Well, then just do finance, because you'll end up in a good place with that. So I chose Finance, did Finance. Then you had to do an internship, and suddenly everything became serious. So I also went, all suited up, as an intern to work at a finance consultant. And then I realized, holy shit, this is so boring. But this, this, this is not it. There must be more in life than this. And honestly, I had a nice internship and met nice people, but that's when I realized, wow, this just isn’t it. And then you really start looking, “Oh yeah, what else then?” And I pretty quickly figured out, oh well, maybe startups, maybe that's something. Because it was portrayed as cool in the media. I thought, well, that must be cool.

Iron Brands (00:16):

So it was never like, “Oh, you know, it’s been instilled in you from birth, like your father is an entrepreneur or your whole family is,” and then you just follow that. And that, that wasn’t it. It was only when I discovered what I didn’t like that I started investigating what was right. And then, through connections, I got an internship at a startup. Then I realized, oh, I think that’s entrepreneurship. You can just start a company, apparently. And then? Well, then you can do amazing things. And that’s when it all began.

Bart Sprenkels (00:16):

It sounds so wonderfully simple when you put it that way.

Iron Brands (00:16):

Yes, but often it's like—I could now tell stories about always being meant to be an entrepreneur and all that—but no, it's not like that.

Bart Sprenkels (00:16):

No, but I mean, you can simply register and say, “I'm going to be an entrepreneur,” and you just go for it. It's really that simple. But it feels intimidating for many.

Iron Brands (00:17):

Yes. Yes. No, but that only hit me after that finance internship, when I then did an internship with another entrepreneur. And that was in a very small team of four people. And then? You become very involved. You kind of already feel like an entrepreneur. But then you don't take on the risks, yet you're continuously working together to get that company off the ground. It didn’t work out, by the way—the company no longer exists—but I got a lot of ideas from it, like, “Wow, you can just do this.” And if you have an idea, you can register with the Chamber of Commerce and build a website. And then you're essentially being an entrepreneur, I suppose. So the barrier always felt very high for me—like, “Oh, I'm studying Finance and climbing that career ladder to become an entrepreneur.” There’s still so much in between. But for me, it was really just that step of, “Hey, I'm going to see what the world of startups is like.”

Iron Brands (00:18):

And then it became entrepreneurship. Because really, it’s just a small step.

Bart Sprenkels (00:18):

So that internship you did, which you mentioned when you were an intern—that was at that startup. And then you thought, “I want to be an entrepreneur,” and then you started Fix.

Iron Brands (00:18):

Yes, exactly.

Bart Sprenkels (00:18):

Okay, and that was with others too. So you already had, yes, yes.

Iron Brands (00:18):

It was just that—I did that internship at that startup and it worked out. But then I got the idea, “Oh, we could start a business.” No idea what we would do. Um. And then I was with a friend of mine, with whom I was also living. He was somewhat similar—already in the same vein—and also quite complementary, because I felt more like a marketing/business/sales person and he was more on the design side. So I thought, “Okay, we know each other well, we get along, we have similar ideas and are somewhat complementary. Shouldn't we just start a business together?” And then we had another one—a guy, our friend. And he did data science and said, “Yeah, but you can also program.” Yes, that's good. And then, “Okay, what are we going to do? Well, shall we start an internship platform?”

Iron Brands (00:19):

Because I was doing an internship, so I thought, “That's a good reason.” Good reason, yes—zero validation. We had it.

Bart Sprenkels (00:19):

Rock solid.

Iron Brands (00:19):

Yes, zero validation. We just went ahead and built it and then, when we agreed on it together, we really thought, “Okay, this is going to be—this is going to be the new Uber. This is really going to be huge, and we're going to raise funding and, yeah, open an office.”

Bart Sprenkels (00:19):

Eating noodles, ping pong tables, bean bags.

Iron Brands (00:19):

Yes, and then you realize that in reality, things turn out very differently. But in the end, we did—and I’m pretty proud that we, as three people fresh out of school, went and built it. Zero validation, zero ideas, not even a proper email ever written in my life—and then you go and build a business and actually hold it together, because in three years we grew to, yes, €100,000 per year. Fortunately, it doesn’t cost much; running an online internship platform doesn’t have high costs. We managed to survive for three years on very low wages. And yes, the company still exists. It works. And so my partner, with whom I started, still runs it, and, well, it's going well.

Bart Sprenkels (00:20):

Yes, this is a success story.

Iron Brands (00:20):

Yes, yes, yes, I really see it as a success too.

Bart Sprenkels (00:20):

Yes, and with a sort of “don’t try this at home” vibe. What you’re saying is that you just started without any validation. Yes.

Iron Brands (00:20):

Yes. I would say, please try this at home.

Bart Sprenkels (00:20):

Try this at home.

Iron Brands (00:20):

Yes, because in the end you learn so much from it. And I think this has been the foundation that allowed me—with Simple Analytics and later with my other company—to know a bit about how things should be done, because I mostly know how not to do it and you end up falling into every pitfall. Have you ever been hit by one? So next time it’ll go a lot faster. Or you can validate faster, or you can better assess what works and what doesn’t.

Bart Sprenkels (00:21):

What kind of pitfalls are those then? For example?

Iron Brands (00:21):

Yes, well, basically everything. Just try to get your first customers with your internship platform and you'll find that you get turned down a hundred times before it finally clicks—and then you start to understand why people say no, and how you could get people to say yes a little sooner. And also that you end up making budgets and pitch decks and realize that it’s all really bullshit.

Bart Sprenkels (00:21):

Pitch decks.

Iron Brands (00:21):

Yes. Yes, but you're just okay. Yes, maybe—maybe. I think the pitch deck is 90% of the pitch. I think that's bullshit. And, can you explain why? But you just end up getting caught up in things—lots of thinking, lots of dreaming. But actually, when you look at reality, there are just other things needed. And of course, with that internship platform we couldn’t raise any funding, but then we spent three weeks hammering out a pitch deck.

Bart Sprenkels (00:22):

Yes. Mm huh?

Iron Brands (00:22):

Yes, sort of. No.

Bart Sprenkels (00:22):

No, but that's exactly what it is. Indeed, that is a lesson, because then you start thinking, “Was that necessary? And what else could we have done in those three weeks?”

Iron Brands (00:22):

Yes. You just end up dealing with other things—often things you shouldn’t be dealing with. But you just don’t know any better. Then you have to experience it; you have to run into it. I see people—everyone always wants to be an entrepreneur. Everyone finds the image of an entrepreneur very sexy. But can you really say that works out? It works out a lot better than you think. Um. But yes, everyone is mostly focused on strategy and thinking about how to make it big or what my pitch should look like, and then we can raise funding, and then, yes, that’s all just part of it. Or making a budget. Yes, a budget—you can scrap it after a month. Of course. I understand that if you're further along, you want to look ahead and make investments. But when you're just starting out, you really don't need a budget. And if you get caught up in that...

Iron Brands (00:23):

Just double your costs, halve your revenue, and add another year on, because it doesn’t add up—and you end up spending a lot of time on it anyway. So yes, all those lessons from those three years, and then you go work on your new company. You definitely take that with you, and I can imagine. So that's why, above all, try this at home, because you learn so much from it. And if you don’t do that “try this at home” and, if I hadn’t done Fix, then I would have just been stuck reading all these business books. And then? I would have become way too clever.

Bart Sprenkels (00:24):

But I would have been super smart.

Iron Brands (00:24):

Then I wouldn’t have any idea of what was coming at me. Yeah, and people get stuck in that—having ideas and thinking entrepreneurship is super sexy. So they read Zero to One and all the books by Elon Musk, and so on. But in the end, something has to be produced, and you just have to get out there, get a few slaps in the face, and then keep going.

Bart Sprenkels (00:24):

Yeah, get your hands dirty and just go for it.

Iron Brands (00:24):

Yeah, yeah.

Bart Sprenkels (00:24):

Right?

Iron Brands (00:24):

Yes, yes, definitely.

Bart Sprenkels (00:24):

So you learned, um, a lot. Three very educational years at Fiks. Yeah. And then you met Adriaan, right? Because you didn’t know him yet, you said you weren’t in the picture, and he had already started with Simple Analytics. So, how did that go? You can’t just knock on someone's door and say, “Hey, can I join in?” Back then...

Iron Brands (00:24):

No. No, that's right. Um. So after three years of Fix, I was a bit done with it. And by that I mean we thought we were going to become the biggest company in the Netherlands, but in the end, that wasn’t the case. And we did have a good company, and it was running—and it still is. Um. But I felt like it was two steps forward, one step back, and it didn’t have that hockeystick growth you’re looking for. And we ran into all sorts of things where, um, well, some things couldn’t be built because we didn’t have the knowledge in-house and we just started as a team of three. It’s fun to do business with friends, but at a certain point I wanted to move on, and then I made the choice for myself of, “Yeah, I think I need to look for something different because I have a different ambition and want to go in a different direction.” And that was very difficult.

Iron Brands (00:25):

It was also pretty painful, because you know, we were doing business. I was doing business with my friends, so yes, we all had contracts and everything was arranged very professionally. But yes, you get very close, and some people have a different idea about business, and fortunately we all ended up okay. But that was a difficult period, and then I started wondering, “Okay, with all the baggage and knowledge I've gained over these past three years, what do I really want?” And then I realized that I really wanted to be more on the software side and work with someone who was very technical and had a product. Because at Fix, we had a platform—we had a website—but we were basically just selling internships, and sometimes we got customers who were angry because the quality of an intern wasn’t good. And I, well, I didn’t have that in my control, so to speak.

Iron Brands (00:26):

We were just the matchmaker, and in the end, you had to assess whether the intern fit your company, etc. But I found it very difficult not having control over the quality of my product. So then I thought, “Okay, I just want to go the software route, because then we can create a scalable solution and the person who wants to buy it will know what they're buying. Because here’s the product, and it costs €10 a month or €100 a month. It doesn’t matter, but then you get that.” So that’s what I was really looking for. But I also knew that I would never be able to build that myself. So I did try taking software courses, but, well, that wasn’t for me.

Bart Sprenkels (00:27):

Did you take something like PHP for Beginners or something?

Iron Brands (00:27):

Get into it? Yes, there’s a course called “Honderd Days of No Code.” But in the end, that led me to a little circle in Amsterdam with people who actually make software themselves—in that hacker scene, sort of. That’s also an umbrella term for it. And then I got more into it and started going to some drinks events, also to meet people who were in that field. And at one of those events, I ran into Adriaan, and I asked, “So, what do you do then?” Well, that’s a story in itself.

Bart Sprenkels (00:27):

It was Simple Analytics.

Iron Brands (00:27):

Simple Analytics.

Bart Sprenkels (00:28):

Ten thousand.

Iron Brands (00:28):

Ten thousand. And then I thought, and thought, holy shit, that is incredibly cool. And then I asked him, “So, how do you get your customers? And how do you do it? How does it work?” And he said, “No idea. They just come.” And then I thought, “Okay, I need to be a part of this.” And well, that was kind of simultaneous with me leaving Fix. And when it was completely clear that this was more my thing, I just grabbed a phone, called him, and said, “Hey, remember me? Three months ago at that drinks event?”

Bart Sprenkels (00:28):

Three months apart.

Iron Brands (00:28):

Yes, maybe even more, by the way.

Bart Sprenkels (00:28):

A long time.

Iron Brands (00:28):

A long time. Yes. Um, yes. Do you remember me? And don't you just look for a business partner who handles the business side? And then he said yes. When we had that conversation, I thought, “That really clicked for me too,” because he was really struggling with the fact that he needed to stabilize at some point. And then he knew he had to do marketing, but that just wasn’t in him.

Bart Sprenkels (00:29):

Absolutely no desire.

Iron Brands (00:29):

As in.

Bart Sprenkels (00:29):

Everyone here.

Iron Brands (00:29):

Every day he would wake up with a knot in his stomach thinking, “Oh shit, actually I have to do marketing, but I just don’t feel like it. I just want to build things.” So very soon after, it was like, “Okay, then let’s not even have a coffee meeting.” And well, one thing led to another, even though we didn’t know each other at the time. That was a risk especially for him, because he was letting me into his company, but also for me, because I was about to invest my time and energy. So what I said to him was, “You know what? I’m going to work for you for three months for free, full days. And during those three months, you can fire me at any time—no strings attached. Just shake my hand. If you don’t think it works, for any reason, then we won’t do it.”

Iron Brands (00:29):

But if after three months you still think, “Alright, we should do this,” then you have to take into account that I am an entrepreneur too and I also want a big share of the pie. So if you’re open to that, then we’ll do it. You can cancel at any time, but after three months, if you want to continue, then we really become partners and co-entrepreneurs in this business. Naturally, after those three months we both realized we just had to do it.

Bart Sprenkels (00:30):

This is going to be something. Yeah, because you went from working with your friends and housemates at Fix—people you know very well and know how they are and communicate—to working with a guy you met at a drinks event.

Iron Brands (00:30):

Yeah, yeah, no, that’s right.

Bart Sprenkels (00:30):

And then, after about three months of a trial period, did you get what you call the Iron Trial?

Iron Brands (00:30):

Yeah. Well, and vice versa too, because I also worked with him for three months. I wanted to see if I liked it, if it worked. And you often notice after three months, “Okay, this works or this doesn’t.” And we both immediately realized that it worked. And since then, well, we made a contract and agreed on everything. You wanted to be an entrepreneur, right? So what about the percentages? We figured that out very quickly. Since then, we’ve had contracts tucked away and haven’t looked back, just moving forward.

Bart Sprenkels (00:31):

Yeah. The contract is in place.

Iron Brands (00:31):

Yeah, yeah. You do need a contract. I would recommend everyone to hammer one out—get it completely locked down business-wise. Because if you have to part ways later, it makes things a lot easier. You just have a contract that says, “This is what we agreed on,” and then you shake hands and walk away. And sometimes it’s not so easy at all.

Bart Sprenkels (00:31):

But yeah, not often, but sometimes things just fall apart. We’ve had falling outs with business partners—like with Go Founders.

Iron Brands (00:31):

Yeah, but then it’s really good to have something on paper.

Bart Sprenkels (00:31):

Yeah.

Iron Brands (00:31):

Just in case you encounter these kinds of situations. At Fix we also had a contract. The harder part was that I felt very emotionally involved with the company, since I had founded it myself and it didn’t turn out exactly as I had hoped. And then you have to distance yourself—and in a business sense, from your friends. That makes it very personal, and it makes parting ways much harder. Look, if Adriaan and I now get into an argument or can’t see eye to eye, we just have the contract. We’ve become good friends, but initially we are business partners, and if something happens, the contract clearly states what happens in situations x, y, and z.

Iron Brands (00:32):

Yeah, and then it makes it a lot easier to split up.

Bart Sprenkels (00:32):

Yeah, but I always find those conversations difficult—when you’re drafting and hammering things together, you really need a good carpenter, I think.

Iron Brands (00:32):

Yeah. Well, there are people who are good at that and enjoy it. But, um, we only did that after the three-month period, because you don’t want to start with that. It’s very important, and you know it will have to come eventually—just like an equity split and things like that. But I just said, “I think this is a really interesting opportunity to work with you, and I’m willing to take some risk by working for you for three months for free. And if you don’t like it, then I’m out and that’s my lost time and energy. But if it works, then we start with the fun part—working together and building a bond. And after three months, if we both think, ‘This is super nice,’ then we know, ‘Okay, we really like it, this is great,’ and then we have to agree on the next steps.”

Iron Brands (00:33):

Yeah, but if you start by negotiating every little detail and percentages before you even begin working together, I don’t think that’s a good start.

Bart Sprenkels (00:33):

No. And that’s also nice because after those three months you both have built up goodwill. You both want to continue, so then those discussions become a bit easier, I think. You still have a company—you mentioned it just now, UniHosted. English? Dutch?

Iron Brands (00:34):

UniHosted, a hosting company.

Bart Sprenkels (00:34):

Well, this is a very simple company. You specialize in hosting UniFi controllers for MSPs.

Iron Brands (00:34):

Yeah.

Bart Sprenkels (00:34):

Of course.

Iron Brands (00:34):

Yeah, I hadn’t heard of this before I started. I mean, honestly, I’d never heard of it.

Bart Sprenkels (00:34):

Yeah.

Iron Brands (00:34):

Um. And I won’t go into all the details of what it does, but it’s a hosting service. We host a UniFi controller—and a UniFi controller is basically a kind of dashboard that manages your WiFi devices. Installation companies need those dashboards. And we host it on a server, and those installation companies—the MSPs—pay us monthly to do that. I’d never heard of that before. But this is a similar situation I ended up in with Adriaan. It all came about because of Simple Analytics. Adriaan, I wanted an office, and we have an office in Amsterdam with just the two of us, and the office is pretty big, so we set up a bunch of desks there and invited people from the local nerd community in Amsterdam, saying, “Hey, we have desks here if you’re working on cool, interesting tech projects.”

Iron Brands (00:35):

Well, I just sit there and rent a desk for €250 a month, and you kind of have colleagues even though they’re not really your colleagues.

Bart Sprenkels (00:35):

Yeah.

Iron Brands (00:35):

So there are now eight people there, and everyone is busy with their own projects. And I know how those people came together—it was simple. I posted on Twitter, and someone replied, “I’m in Amsterdam too; why not come by sometime?” That person had a desk and said, “I also have a friend—can he come too?” And he did. One of those guys was Dries. Dries worked as a software engineer at a development agency, and he was doing it on the side, just tinkering with projects.

Bart Sprenkels (00:36):

Like, they really know how to do it.

Iron Brands (00:36):

Yeah. So I went over to Dries and said, “So, what exactly are you working on? Tell me about it.” And he started explaining what he was doing. He began it because he wanted to try it himself once, but then he discovered that hosting the UniFi controller is incredibly difficult. And then I thought, “Yeah, several people are bound to run into that problem. I can’t do that.” I mean, building a solution that automates that part and takes the hosting burden off—you know, because he just didn’t get it. And then I said, “Dries, I think this is just a business.” And then it was like, “Yeah, but how exactly? And how does it work?” So I went to Adriaan and said, “I think Dries has something really interesting here. They don’t even need to look into it.” And then Adriaan took a technical look at it and got back to me. That was interesting.

Bart Sprenkels (00:37):

Yeah, he has a business.

Iron Brands (00:37):

So we approached Dries and said, “Hey, we want to make you an offer. The product you’re building is your business.” We already knew Dries a bit and knew he was an incredibly good engineer. And then we said, “If we can’t do the business side ourselves—and especially I, like I did with Simple Analytics—we can do it here too.” And Dries said, “That’s fine.” He was open to it, and he even quit his job.

Bart Sprenkels (00:37):

Really?

Iron Brands (00:37):

Yes, and then he started working at Simple Analytics as a freelance engineer to make ends meet. And, well, we went on to build it. Eventually, Simple Analytics scaled down; now he’s there three days a week, and it’s gradually moving to full-time, and he has his own business. And so do I, because I’m also part of it.

Bart Sprenkels (00:38):

What a nice turn of events. And I really see a similarity between the start of Junior Hosted and Simple Analytics—they’re both run by people who encounter problems in their own circles or with their own activities. I think that’s a great tip for anyone watching or listening: if you want to be an entrepreneur, look at your own problems. What issues are you facing?

Iron Brands (00:38):

Oh, 100%. And especially if you’re somewhat technical and you want to be in the SaaS, the software side—yeah, I really like that. Especially because I have two partners, Adriaan and Dries, who are, in a way, ten times smarter than I am and can really dive deep into a problem and build a solution. I didn’t have those skills, so I looked for a partner who was complementary to me. But in turn, they couldn’t really get things off the ground—Adriaan, maybe semi, but not really—and they still needed someone to handle the business or marketing side. You need both components. So I would say, if you want that, and you’re fairly technical or enjoy working with tech, go look for your own problems, because if you have a problem, there’s a good chance others face it too.

Bart Sprenkels (00:39):

That’s it, right?

Iron Brands (00:39):

And if you can share that within a community of people who you know also have that problem, you’ll quickly go from zero to one. And if you have a more commercial background, you can even start a business yourself. But I chose otherwise—I just needed to find those guys who can solve those problems and support and help grow their business. Because you also need that growth component that they either don’t have the desire or the time for.

Bart Sprenkels (00:40):

Yeah, that gut feeling with them.

Iron Brands (00:40):

Yeah, I take that away from them. And so we’ve now had two fairly successful partnerships like that.

Bart Sprenkels (00:40):

Also, one reason I was really looking forward to this episode was because we had been in contact for a while, but it took some time before we could record, because you were working so hard as an entrepreneur.

Iron Brands (00:40):

A front desk.

Bart Sprenkels (00:40):

Entrepreneurship from a front desk?

Iron Brands (00:40):

Yes, it sounds a bit cliché, but that’s true. We were in our little office and simply decided to set up a front desk for a month.

Bart Sprenkels (00:40):

With those eight desks that you also rent out.

Iron Brands (00:40):

Exactly. Out of the eight, five joined, plus three other guys we know through connections, all working on their own tech companies and being somewhat location independent. I said, “November isn’t the best month in the Netherlands. Why not set up somewhere else?” And that’s what we did last year. It worked out really well. And now again. But when I tell everyone, they think, “Oh, nice, he’s off to Bali on vacation,” even though we really worked hard.

Bart Sprenkels (00:41):

I believe that too.

Iron Brands (00:41):

Really worked hard.

Bart Sprenkels (00:41):

Yes, yes, yes, indeed. I’ve seen what you share on LinkedIn. But just because you go there doesn’t mean you ride around on a moped and just hang out on the beach.

Iron Brands (00:41):

But a lot of moped riding, indeed.

Bart Sprenkels (00:41):

Mopeds are the way to go there, right? I haven’t been there yet.

Iron Brands (00:41):

Even though we did see the beach, I was actually amazed at how much we got done there. That’s because your entire social life is non-existent there and your schedule is completely empty. At home, I live with my girlfriend and, you know, your cousin comes over for dinner on Wednesday and all that. It’s nice—maybe she listens, I really enjoy it when you come over, but there are so many things and your weekends get completely booked. And then some guys would say, “Yeah, okay. Sure, we did fun things on the weekend, but I want to just push forward and work undisturbed for a while.” And there were always about three or four who said, “Yeah, that’s fine. Me too.” And then four of them would go, while others went off to do something else. It was just so much easier to set your own schedule than being stuck at home with all the social, not a social safety net, but social traps.

Bart Sprenkels (00:42):

Yeah, I get what you mean, and that really resonated with me too, because you mentioned it on the phone. I said at the beginning of the episode that when you start a business, it doesn’t have to be in one way. You don’t have to have an office, work 40 hours a week in a suit, and have clients. There are many ways. And the idea of all of us going to Bali because it’s cold here in November really appealed to me.

Iron Brands (00:43):

Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s one of the great things about entrepreneurship—being able to put your own spin on it. And we really try to bring that into our product at Simple Analytics. We don’t always do things that are super optimized for conversion, but we do things that are fun because they give you joy. You can let your own creativity flow into your product—a kind of creation from the two of us. And you can also make choices based on what you stand for. For example, we don’t run ads, and we do that on principle. I know that if we did run ads, our revenue could grow much faster. But we actually want to set ourselves apart from Google and its ecosystem. So instead, we fund our ads ourselves.

Bart Sprenkels (00:43):

Those are ads, for example, that appear at the top of Google’s search results.

Iron Brands (00:44):

So essentially, we’re supporting Google’s ecosystem.

Bart Sprenkels (00:44):

Yeah.

Iron Brands (00:44):

In the end, it could actually yield extra money. And a lot of people do that. You might miss opportunities and say, “This is just not how we want to build our company or position ourselves.” For example, we already share all our numbers. If you go to simpelanalytics.com, you can see all our data—though it might need updating.

Bart Sprenkels (00:44):

I was about to say…

Iron Brands (00:44):

I was just about to say, “I now have the…”

Bart Sprenkels (00:44):

The opportunity to be in your…

Iron Brands (00:44):

Sight.

Bart Sprenkels (00:44):

To say. So I went there. I found it interesting, but the, the, the graph isn’t fully up-to-date.

Iron Brands (00:44):

The graph isn’t up to date. So, update it, Adriaan?

Bart Sprenkels (00:44):

Yeah, I keep clicking “send reminder.” Do those reach Adriaan then?

Iron Brands (00:44):

They do come through to us, so that’s nice. So keep clicking. But our revenue and NPS score are up to date there. We actually built that dashboard so you can see how much revenue is coming in, what we spend on costs, and what our profit is. We did that for several reasons, and it’s also a way to add your own creation to your company. We were tired of all the bullshit about building companies on social media. You know those real estate guys buying houses in Dubai and talking about which Rolex you want, and even on professional platforms like LinkedIn it’s all just for show—talking about vision, “We’ve raised so much funding,” showing a photo of three guys on an Amsterdam bridge in white shirts, and then in a year you don’t hear from them because they’re off building some kind of castle in the sky.

Iron Brands (00:45):

Yeah, and I think that was Adriaan’s idea. He just wanted to show how it works.

Bart Sprenkels (00:45):

Really.

Iron Brands (00:45):

It shows how it goes. And you can see in that graph that in the first three years you’re just struggling and not much comes in, and then it grows steadily. You see that it takes a long time. And if you build a software company, these are the costs you have to consider, and you get a better picture of how things are going. That’s exactly what we wanted to convey—that you don’t have to follow those flashy stories about buying real estate in Dubai or raising funding. You can just build a company, out of your own pocket, if you work really hard on it for five years. It doesn’t all have to come in a month; it grows steadily and it’s not like you go from zero to one hundred in a few months.

Iron Brands (00:46):

Plus, we’re now a bit in the privacy space, so transparency is key. We believe in transparency. People think it’s awesome that we do that—it’s a bit of a marketing/branding thing. So, to get back to the point, there are ways to shape your own entrepreneurial story or your own company in your own style. This is an example of that—like going to Bali. But if people want something else, you can set it up however you want.

Bart Sprenkels (00:47):

Yeah, because you call it that. I had it written down: Open Startup. The open startup building, right?

Iron Brands (00:47):

Yeah, exactly. Just open.

Bart Sprenkels (00:47):

Yeah.

Iron Brands (00:47):

Building your company?

Bart Sprenkels (00:47):

Yeah, but I also notice that you’re very active on LinkedIn. I’ve mentioned it a few times. Is that intentional? Is it also a form of marketing?

Iron Brands (00:47):

Yeah, LinkedIn is basically marketing anyway—it’s not a platform that gives me much satisfaction because I think it’s all feel-good news, while it’s actually a lot of bullshit. I’m more on Twitter and, recently, Blue Sky—the new Twitter that I’m a big fan of. I do share a lot, but I just use a tool that posts on all platforms. So yes, I’m very active on LinkedIn, but mostly I share updates like, “We have this new building now.” Often when you see people posting on LinkedIn, they’re sharing stories about their authority, like “I came across this,” and then they DM you and you get my course. We’re basically doing continuous updates about what we’re building or that we need feedback.

Bart Sprenkels (00:48):

Yeah, I see a lot of features and many choices you make as an entrepreneur. I find it really interesting to follow, because you see the choices you all make.

Iron Brands (00:48):

Yeah, I think so too. And I believe many of my followers are in that same boat—they like watching along and giving feedback, just like many customers do. We might say, “We’re working on this feature now, what do you think?” and I get really good responses.

Bart Sprenkels (00:49):

Really substantive.

Iron Brands (00:49):

Yeah, it’s the perfect channel to get feedback. We just launched a new part of our onboarding, put it out on Twitter, LinkedIn, and Blue Sky, and I got responses like, “I can’t read this” or “It looks weird,” etc. Perfect—feedback in, and we build it better. It’s really a way of crowdsourcing feedback, and it works perfectly.

Bart Sprenkels (00:49):

Super effective.

Iron Brands (00:49):

Yeah. And if you keep posting, your posts will show up in people’s feeds. After a while, they’ll start to recognize you, and that becomes a bit of marketing.

Bart Sprenkels (00:49):

Yeah, it’s also a form of personal branding. What you’re saying is that you don’t really like LinkedIn because people build castles in the air. Nice word.

Iron Brands (00:49):

Not everyone, though.

Bart Sprenkels (00:49):

No, no, because there are plenty out there. You know, people say, “They’re raising so much funding” and shout from the rooftops. But you didn’t raise any funding with Simple Analytics, right? It’s bootstrapped, as they say.

Iron Brands (00:50):

Yeah, that was also a choice.

Bart Sprenkels (00:50):

Because what is bootstrapping and why choose it?

Iron Brands (00:50):

Well, bootstrapping means you don’t raise external money. So Simple Analytics, Junior Hosted, and even Fixed are 100% owned by me, Adriaan, Dries, and my other partners.

Bart Sprenkels (00:50):

I’d get an investor very quickly. Or something like that.

Iron Brands (00:50):

So yeah. I’m not against funding or investing, but when you see how it works in the US versus Europe, all the big companies full of cash come from the US, and we use them every day. If you want to think big, funding can be a way to build an incredibly large, influential company. But it’s not necessary for everything, and it’s becoming the norm. In my first company, raising funding was a goal in itself because I could put it on LinkedIn and people would look at me and say, “Wow, look how big they are working on something; this is serious shit.” I feel that funding is trending that way because everyone only posts about it when they’ve raised money, even though in many cases you might be better off without it.

Iron Brands (00:51):

You’re better off not doing it. If you’re building a factory or a hardware company and it’s capital intensive, then by all means raise as much as you need. But if you’re building a software application or an HR dashboard—which, with all due respect, can be a very good business—then you might be better off not raising funding. That’s the choice we made with Simple Analytics. Our business isn’t capital intensive; we set it up ourselves and built it all on our own. And while raising funding sounds cool because you get money to invest in growth, you also bring someone on board who has a say, and then you can’t steer the company exactly how you want.

Iron Brands (00:52):

But if it goes wrong, there are many horror stories about things going badly with investors and so on. We want to avoid that because we want to build our own company in which we make all the decisions ourselves. And our product lends itself perfectly to that.

Bart Sprenkels (00:52):

Because the costs are so low that…

Iron Brands (00:53):

…they’re so low. It’s not capital intensive. So I often think that when you have the chance, first see if you can fix it yourself, and only raise funding when you really need it—if you need to make capital investments or if you’ve found a market and your product works. And if I had a hundred thousand or a million, I’d know exactly what to spend it on and what would come of it. That’s a kind of growth accelerator, but that’s usually later. Most people come up with an idea like an Airbnb for cats that they haven’t built yet and then want funding. I’m not a fan of that.

Bart Sprenkels (00:53):

I get it. But what’s interesting is that when you started Fix—the internship platform—you wanted to become the biggest company, like Uber, and that mentality is different from what I hear now at Simple Analytics. Now it’s like, “We only need a small market share to do what we want.” But wouldn’t it be the case that if you enter such a growth phase, you could use funding to grow Simple Analytics a lot faster?

Iron Brands (00:54):

Yeah, that could be. And it’s also a different mindset. A lot of people who hear my story say, “You’re thinking too small,” and I often get that feedback—and there’s some truth to it. It might still be that with Simple Analytics, it’s simply a choice. You could even call it a lifestyle business. I already hear that; it sounds crazy when someone says that, but it’s become a common term. A lifestyle business means you’ve changed your vision, and those rocket companies have to be huge, huge, even bigger, the biggest—blasting off—and eventually they have to be worth a billion or crash, because it doesn’t matter if it’s worth 10 million if you go in the other direction. That’s kind of what we do as calm companies: we grow steadily with our own resources and design our own lives.

Iron Brands (00:55):

Yeah, and that’s pretty much the route we’re on, though I’m not saying it can’t still be huge. You might inject extra money as a growth accelerator to get there faster. Those are choices you have to make as an entrepreneur. As long as you’re aware of what it means if things go wrong or what you’re taking on, it’s fine. So if you’re conscious about raising funding, be aware of the risks. And if that’s the trade-off—because we want to build the rocket and it has to be worth a billion or crash—then fine, go ahead.

Bart Sprenkels (00:55):

Yeah, and you two have clearly chosen that we don’t have to be a rocket, so this is the way to go.

Iron Brands (00:55):

Yeah. Well, not necessarily—we don’t have to be a rocket, but we choose not to raise external funding to build one. That doesn’t mean we aren’t still working on growing and having ambitions. We just talked about that 1 million per year, and if you do that as a duo with low costs, you add it all up and you’re set. Then it works.

Iron Brands (00:41):

And even though we saw the beach, I was actually surprised at how much we got done there. That’s because your entire social life is non-existent there and your schedule is completely empty. At home, I live with my girlfriend and, you know, your cousin comes over for dinner on Wednesday and all that. It’s just nice—but there are so many things and your weekends get fully booked. Then some guys would say, “Yeah, we had fun over the weekend, but I want to just push forward and work undisturbed for a while.” And there were always about three or four who said, “Yeah, that’s fine. Me too.” And then four of them went off while others did something else. It was so much easier to set your own schedule than to be stuck at home with all those social traps.

Bart Sprenkels (00:42):

Yeah, I get what you mean, and that really resonated with me too, because you mentioned it on the phone. I said at the beginning of the episode that when you start a business, it doesn’t have to be one way. You don’t have to have an office, work 40 hours a week in a suit, and have clients. There are many ways. And the idea of all of us going to Bali because it’s cold here in November really appealed to me.

Iron Brands (00:43):

Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s one of the great things about entrepreneurship—being able to put your own spin on it. We really try to bring that into our product at Simple Analytics. We don’t always do things that are super optimized for conversion, but we do what’s fun because it brings you joy. You can let your creativity flow into your product—a kind of creation from the two of us. And you can also make choices based on what you stand for. For example, we don’t run ads, and we stick to that principle. I know that if we ran ads, our revenue could grow much faster. But we want to differentiate ourselves from Google and its ecosystem, so we fund our ads ourselves.

Bart Sprenkels (00:43):

Those are ads, for example, that appear at the top of Google’s search results.

Iron Brands (00:44):

So essentially, we’re supporting Google’s ecosystem.

Bart Sprenkels (00:44):

Yeah.

Iron Brands (00:44):

In the end, it could actually yield extra money. And many people do that. You might miss opportunities and say, “This is not how we want to build or position our company.” For example, we already share all our numbers. If you go to simpelanalytics.com, you can see all our data—though it might need updating.

Bart Sprenkels (00:44):

I was about to say…

Iron Brands (00:44):

I was just about to say, “I now have the…”

Bart Sprenkels (00:44):

The opportunity to be in your…

Iron Brands (00:44):

Sight.

Bart Sprenkels (00:44):

To say. So I went there. I found it interesting, but the graph isn’t fully up-to-date.

Iron Brands (00:44):

The graph isn’t up to date. So, update it, Adriaan?

Bart Sprenkels (00:44):

Yeah, I keep clicking “send reminder.” Do those reach Adriaan then?

Iron Brands (00:44):

They do come through to us, so that’s nice. So keep clicking. But our revenue and NPS score are up to date. We built that dashboard so you can see how much revenue is coming in, what our costs are, and what our profit is. We did that for several reasons, and it’s also a way to add your own creation to your company. We were tired of all the bullshit about building companies on social media—those real estate guys buying houses in Dubai, talking about which Rolex you want—and even on LinkedIn it’s all just for show, with talk of vision and “We’ve raised so much funding,” showing pictures of three guys on an Amsterdam bridge in white shirts, only to vanish in a year because they’re off building castles in the sky.

Iron Brands (00:45):

Yeah, and I think that was Adriaan’s idea—to show how it works.

Bart Sprenkels (00:45):

Really.

Iron Brands (00:45):

It shows how it goes. In that graph you see that during the first three years, you’re just struggling and not much comes in, and then it grows steadily. You see that it takes a long time. And if you build a software company, these are the costs you have to consider, and it gives you a better picture of how things are progressing. That’s what we wanted to convey: you don’t have to follow the flashy stories about buying real estate in Dubai or raising funding. You can build a company out of your own pocket if you work really hard on it for five years. It doesn’t all have to come in a month—it grows steadily, not from zero to a hundred in a few months.

Iron Brands (00:46):

Plus, we’re now a bit in the privacy space, so transparency is key. We value transparency. People think it’s awesome that we do that—it’s a bit of a marketing/branding thing. So to get back to the point, there are ways to shape your own entrepreneurial story or company in your own way. This is an example of that—like going to Bali. But if people want something else, you can set it up however you want.

Bart Sprenkels (00:47):

Yeah, because you call it that. I had it written down: Open Startup—the open startup building, right?

Iron Brands (00:47):

Yeah, exactly. Just open.

Bart Sprenkels (00:47):

Yeah.

Iron Brands (00:47):

Building your company?

Bart Sprenkels (00:47):

Yeah, but I also notice that you’re very active on LinkedIn. I’ve mentioned it a few times. Is that intentional? Is it also a form of marketing?

Iron Brands (00:47):

Yeah, LinkedIn is basically marketing anyway—it’s not a platform that gives me much satisfaction because I think it’s all feel-good news, while it’s actually a lot of bullshit. I’m more on Twitter and recently Blue Sky—the new Twitter that I’m a big fan of. I do share a lot, but I use a tool that posts on all platforms. So yes, I’m very active on LinkedIn, but mostly I share updates like, “We have this new building now.” Often people on LinkedIn post stories about their authority, and then they DM you and you get my course. We’re just continuously updating what we’re building or asking for feedback.

Bart Sprenkels (00:48):

Yeah, I see a lot of features and choices you make as an entrepreneur. I find it really interesting to follow, because you see the choices you all make.

Iron Brands (00:48):

Yeah, I think so too. And I believe many of my followers are in that same boat—they enjoy watching along and giving feedback, just like many customers do. We might say, “We’re working on this feature now. What do you think?” and I get really good responses.

Bart Sprenkels (00:49):

Really substantive.

Iron Brands (00:49):

Bart Sprenkels (00:49):

Super effective.

Iron Brands (00:49):

Yeah. And if you keep posting, your posts will appear in people’s feeds. After a while, they’ll start to recognize you, and that becomes a bit of marketing.

Bart Sprenkels (00:49):

Yeah, it’s also a form of personal branding. What you’re saying is that you don’t really like LinkedIn because people build castles in the air. Nice word.

Iron Brands (00:49):

Not everyone, though.

Bart Sprenkels (00:49):

Iron Brands (00:50):

Yeah, that was also a choice.

Bart Sprenkels (00:50):

Because what is bootstrapping and why choose it?

Iron Brands (00:50):

Well, bootstrapping means you don’t raise external money. So Simple Analytics, Junior Hosted, and even Fixed are 100% owned by me, Adriaan, Dries, and my other partners.

Bart Sprenkels (00:50):

I’d get an investor very quickly. Or something like that.

Iron Brands (00:50):

So yeah. I’m not against funding or investing, but when you see how it works in the US versus Europe, all the big companies full of cash come from the US, and we use them every day. If you want to think big, funding can be the right way to build an incredibly large, influential company. But it’s not necessary for everything, and it’s becoming the norm. In my first company, raising funding was a goal in itself because I could put it on LinkedIn and people would look at me and say, “Wow, look how big they are working on something; this is serious shit.” I feel that funding is trending that way because everyone only posts about it when they’ve raised money, even though in many cases you might be better off without it.

Iron Brands (00:51):

You’re better off not doing it. If you’re building a factory or a hardware company and it’s capital intensive, then by all means, raise as much as you need. But if you’re building a software application or an HR dashboard—which, with all due respect, can be a very good business—then you might be better off not raising funding. That’s the choice we made with Simple Analytics. Our business isn’t capital intensive; we set it up ourselves and built it all on our own. And while raising funding sounds cool because you get money to invest in growth, you also bring someone on board who has a say, and then you can’t steer the company exactly how you want.

Iron Brands (00:52):

Bart Sprenkels (00:52):

Because the costs are so low that…

Iron Brands (00:53):

…they’re so low. It’s not capital intensive. So I often think that when you have the chance, first see if you can fix it yourself, and only raise funding when you really need it—if you need to make capital investments or if you’ve found a market and the product works. And if I had a hundred thousand or a million, I’d know exactly what to spend it on and what would come of it. That’s a kind of growth accelerator, but that’s usually later. Most people come up with ideas like an Airbnb for cats that they haven’t built yet and then want funding. I’m not really a fan of that.

Bart Sprenkels (00:53):

Iron Brands (00:54):

Yeah, that could be. And it’s also a different mindset. A lot of people who hear my story say, “You’re thinking too small,” and I often get that feedback—and there’s some truth in it. It might still be that with Simple Analytics, it’s simply a choice. You could even call it a lifestyle business. I already hear that; it sounds crazy when someone says that, but it’s become a common term. A lifestyle business means you’ve changed your vision, and those rocket companies have to be huge, huge, even bigger—the biggest—blasting off, and eventually they have to be worth a billion or crash, because it doesn’t matter if it’s worth 10 million if you go in the other direction. That’s kind of what we do as calm companies: we grow steadily with our own resources and design our own lives.

Iron Brands (00:55):

Bart Sprenkels (00:55):

Yeah, and you two have clearly chosen that we don’t have to be a rocket, so this is the way to go.

Iron Brands (00:55):

Bart Sprenkels (00:56):

Yes, then I would go to Bali with the whole team and work there.

Iron Brands (00:56):

Yes, well, exactly. So yes. I think those are choices, and I might sometimes be a bit vocal about it. I also think that mission and vision is bullshit. But yes, it's just because of the vision funding train. It kind of takes over a bit because it's something you see very often. And I think many beginner entrepreneurs also think about funding, while I believe that it doesn't have to be; just solve a problem and build a company around it, and then you can indeed choose funding. But it doesn't have to be the number one bullet point on your to-do list.

Bart Sprenkels (00:56):

Yes, step one: make a website, add Google Analytics, and arrange funding.

Iron Brands (00:56):

Yes, yes, yes, that's often how it goes.

Bart Sprenkels (00:57):

Yes, that's a good counterpoint, right? And that's exactly it. What I would advise new entrepreneurs is: be aware of the choices you make.

Iron Brands (00:57):

Yes, yes, yes, yes, I think so, and I believe it's either way. It's not a wrong choice. If it fits your company and your ambitions, then you should definitely do it. But yes.

Bart Sprenkels (00:57):

Yes, as long as it doesn't end in conflict, even with a no.

Iron Brands (00:57):

And explain.

Bart Sprenkels (00:57):

Your co-founder or your investors.

Iron Brands (00:57):

Yes. Yes, you have to take that into account. I think many new entrepreneurs – or entrepreneurs in general – often don't do that. They just think, "I need money, because we're going to build a business," and then eventually realize that, well, this choice I made by jumping on that funding train, I'm actually not so happy with after a few years. Because it's all about the funding. Look, if you bootstrap, then you can always raise funding when you need it. But then you're on a certain trajectory, because your investor will eventually want to get their money out.

Bart Sprenkels (00:58):

Yes, it's like a ticking clock.

Iron Brands (00:58):

It also pushes, like, "Okay boys and girls, let's go!" And I can imagine that you make that choice when you start, and you're in your company for about four to five years. And then I think, if I could do it again, I wouldn't have made that choice. So if you make the choice, do it very thoughtfully and assume that you'll have to live with it for five years.

Bart Sprenkels (00:58):

Yes, I believe we already got this tip from Stanley, the football photographer. He said if I could do it again, I would be a bit more cautious. Also with giving away a percentage of my company, because they later said, "I think I could have managed this without giving away part of my company," and then I would have been here, but with full control to steer my own course, and then he would have experienced less stress in that regard.

Iron Brands (00:58):

Yes, yes, I can completely understand that.

Bart Sprenkels (00:58):

But you have a goal of 1 million in recurring revenue. Is that a Dutch word? Recurring revenue?

Iron Brands (00:58):

Yes, recurring.

Bart Sprenkels (00:59):

Alright then. What are the future plans? Because it's just the two of you. Are more people coming on board?

Iron Brands (00:59):

Yes, the idea is that I would really like to work with a small team, but we want to reach that 1 million with a maximum of about five people. That's the goal, and it should be possible because it's a very scalable piece of software. And of course, the reason we might want a small team is that we want to keep moving fast, which often involves developing new things. And now, everything related to tech and product falls on Adriaan's shoulders, and everything related to marketing and growth falls on mine. So if Adriaan goes on vacation for a month – which is totally fine in a bootstrapped software company – it means nothing gets developed for a month, so to speak. So we would like to move towards a situation that's a bit less founder-dependent.

Iron Brands (01:00):

But with a very small team, so maybe with one or two engineers and perhaps someone in design or marketing. Because you now have a…

Bart Sprenkels (01:00):

A few freelancers, right? What do they do then?

Iron Brands (01:00):

Yes, so what we have done now – and this is actually a solution that works quite well for now – is that we buy in expertise. So there are just the two of us, and when you're two, you have to wear all the hats. I'm acting as the HR manager and finance for Simple Analytics. But, for example, we operate in a market that is very volatile, especially in the area of privacy. So we have someone freelance who works one day a week on privacy. And that ranges from writing blogs about new issues as they arise to ensuring that our own privacy documentation is tightly put together. And? Of course, yes. I mentioned we have 1300 customers, but we also have major clients from really big companies, such as Bloomberg uses us, Mollie uses us, and Michelin uses us. Michelin uses us. Now, that brings in quite a bit of data. Well, we need to be able to process that properly and store it properly.

Iron Brands (01:01):

Well, then we have Jim. He works on our servers, because Adriaan has basic knowledge of servers, but you want that to be set up properly. So we need Jim. And Adriaan has basic knowledge of privacy, but if we want to set it up properly, we need Carlo, who handles privacy. And so we buy in expertise as needed. But we can also quickly drop it if it's not necessary. And that way we essentially remain just the two of us, but we buy in expertise from time to time. Yes, and I think that as we grow, we'll want to move to a model where we have a more in-house team.

Bart Sprenkels (01:01):

So those five would really be colleagues, then.

Iron Brands (01:02):

Yes, that's what you think. And simply because we also enjoy working with other people.

Bart Sprenkels (01:02):

But you already have that, because you already have eight agencies.

Iron Brands (01:02):

But it also seems like a nice development for the company to work with a small team and continue to move quickly, while we are fully bootstrapped without external financing.

Bart Sprenkels (01:02):

Yes. And do you also have – because now as a founder you really work in your company, and then what is often said: instead of working in your company, you should work on your company. Because then your company isn't dependent on you as a founder, and eventually you could sell it. Do you have something like a final goal or an exit or something in mind already?

Iron Brands (01:02):

An exit? There's no exit. And that's what I mean. Look, we've told each other that if someone comes along and names a really strange amount, then we should always consider it. But we do get quite a few inquiries from people who either want to buy the company, or from private equity, or people who want to invest. And we always put that aside a bit because we really enjoy working on this business. And because, well, it's not dependent on our hours – we put in a lot of hours, but if I take a two‑week vacation, the business still runs. So we can easily integrate this business into our lives and ensure that the business fits into our life. Yes, so that we can sustain it indefinitely. And there's no one outside the two of us who says, "Hey guys, I want my money back in seven years," so we're not working towards an exit.

Iron Brands (01:03):

So, well, those, those, those plans aren’t there, but actually the plan is. Yes, that there is no exit.

Bart Sprenkels (01:04):

Yeah, you guys are basically the plan already, but I can imagine if you enjoy aggressively building that early phase. And now growing Simple Analytics. If you like that, it might be that at some point you just have enough, or something like that. That you then think, well, I actually do want to.

Iron Brands (01:04):

Again.

Bart Sprenkels (01:04):

What.

Iron Brands (01:04):

News or something. That’s a pretty nice problem to face, I think. But. No, I can definitely see that. And, um. But we’ve also set up Simple Analytics in such a way that we could start juniors alongside. Yeah, and I don’t rule out that there could be more projects like this, where we see opportunities and work with people who are really good at solving a problem but find it harder to bring it to market. So that is completely open, and it’s really nice that it is, because it doesn’t mean that Adriaan and I are obligated to work on it for a minimum number of years. No, and I think that maybe one day we’ll reach a point where it no longer feels like we really enjoy working on it. Or that we can put our passion and creativity into it. And that would, I think, be a good moment to consider an exit.

Iron Brands (01:05):

But look, you need to think about it a bit beforehand. It’s just a software company with no staff at the moment, so it’s really just a neat package you can hand over to someone. This is the codebase and everything is tidy and…

Bart Sprenkels (01:05):

This is the password.

Iron Brands (01:05):

Yeah, well, go for it. It’s not like you’re selling a warehouse with 300 employees.

Bart Sprenkels (01:05):

Yeah, with onboarding and handover and that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Quite nice. A good position to be in. And now, as I see it progressing, I’m still working really hard on it. And yeah.

Iron Brands (01:05):

Yeah. And it’s just really fun to work on, so. For now, it’s all good.

Bart Sprenkels (01:05):

Thank you very much for this conversation. Yeah, definitely! Is there anything else we can do before we wrap up?

Iron Brands (01:06):

Uh, no. Do you want to know anything else?

Bart Sprenkels (01:06):

Yeah, you ran an Iron Man.

Iron Brands (01:06):

Yeah, not only swam. And swam? Yeah, that’s right.

Bart Sprenkels (01:06):

So, what are the distances of an Iron Man?

Iron Brands (01:06):

309 or three? Comma eight swimming? And then it’s 180 cycling and then a marathon.

Bart Sprenkels (01:06):

Yeah, then another 42 kilometers running. So, how did that come about?

Iron Brands (01:06):

Uh, yeah. It started kind of as a student group thing, because I studied in Maastricht and the Iron Man is held every year in Maastricht and it had been a few years already, and then at the pub the story went, well, it would be funny if Iron Man did Iron Man, because then I would be the first Iron… the one who did Iron Man. And then it got a bit out of hand and I thought, fuck it, I’ll just do it. And then I came home with that story. And then they thought I was joking. And then a few of us said, “Okay, if you do it, then I’ll buy your bike.” And then I said, “Okay, that’s fine, I’ll do it.” And then, uh, some people caught wind of me doing it and then a cousin of mine, who’s an athlete, said, “Well then I’ll train you.” And then I worked on it for a year and trained incredibly hard.

Iron Brands (01:07):

And then that day in Maastricht, I did the Ironman.

Bart Sprenkels (01:07):

Cool! And how was your condition at the start of that year?

Iron Brands (01:07):

Before I did the Ironman? Yeah. Well, when I started training it was alright. The partying students start working out and I had lost thirteen kilos, and yeah, I didn’t have a gram of fat left.

Bart Sprenkels (01:07):

And in just one year, really in one year.

Iron Brands (01:07):

Yeah, and it wasn’t that I suddenly got really muscular, it was just all gone.

Bart Sprenkels (01:07):

Leaner and more efficient.

Iron Brands (01:07):

Actually. Yeah, yeah, very light and lean.

Bart Sprenkels (01:07):

Yeah, I—I sign myself up once a year for a quarter triathlon in September.

Iron Brands (01:08):

Oh nice.

Bart Sprenkels (01:08):

Yeah, so it’s nice to train again, because then you have the summer period. And then I’m always really happy when that day is over. And then I’m very optimistic, like I say, now I’ll just do it. In the winter I keep going, because in September I can do it much better than I do now. Yeah, well, it’s about winter now.

Iron Brands (01:08):

Yeah.

Bart Sprenkels (01:08):

I won’t ask.

Iron Brands (01:08):

I can totally relate because I’ve done that. And then? After that, I never swam, or got on the bike, or ran again. I was completely done with it. Just because you spend your whole year on it. That day itself is the best day of your life. But the year before is really meh. Yeah, but also boring. Because sometimes you’re just in a training session. Then you’re just spending 160 kilometers on a bike, just gawking around. And yeah, those weren’t the most enjoyable training sessions, I must say. Or the best moments. So I thought, “Okay, I’ll do it and then I’m completely done.” Yeah. So yeah.

Bart Sprenkels (01:08):

How awesome that you pulled it off, because I think that’s really impressive in one year, yeah. Hats off.

Iron Brands (01:08):

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And, uh, I must say, I could go on about it for a long time, because it was six years ago and I haven’t done anything since. But yeah, people.

Bart Sprenkels (01:09):

They still say that.

Iron Brands (01:09):

Good that you found it.

Bart Sprenkels (01:09):

Yeah, cheers.

Iron Brands (01:09):

It was on LinkedIn, so.

Bart Sprenkels (01:09):

Hence. Well, great! I’d like to address the viewer or listener at home. Thank you very much for listening to this conversation. I hope you found it interesting and that as an entrepreneur you really got something out of it. That you took away some good lessons. And please leave a like or a comment and follow the podcast in your favorite podcast app, or subscribe to our YouTube channel. And if you have a question or a challenge that we could tackle in the future, please leave it as well. Iron. Super thanks for being here today for your time!

Iron Brands (01:09):

Yeah, you’re welcome!

Bart Sprenkels (01:09):

I found it really interesting.

Iron Brands (01:09):

I really enjoyed being here, so great!