Ethical Allies

Nov 1, 2022

The idea for Simple Analytics came to Adriaan during freelance work for a customer, installing Google Analytics on their website with all the trackers and cookies that come with it. With a nagging feeling of discomfort, it was finally Adriaan's girlfriend who connected the dots and suggested building his own analytics tool that is more human-friendly than existing ones.

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Ethical Allies

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Automated transcript

Nina Müller (00:02):

We are ethical allies, and this is the podcast from the Ethical Commerce Alliance, the Industry Network Concerned with ethical challenges in e-commerce. We strive to support businesses in implementing ethical practises such as data protection beyond GDPR. We connect retailers in tech, academia, nonprofits, and activists to explore how ethical values make a difference to economic success and foster a thriving digital society. We speak with people that connect the dots between unlikely disciplines like computer science and law, or statistics and psychology. Everything's connected and reveals what makes us human. Today I'm speaking with Adriaan van Rossum, founder of privacy first analytics company, Simple Analytics. Adriaan is based in Amsterdam in the Netherlands and runs simple Analytics together with Iron Brands who is taking care of the marketing part when a Adriaan is responsible for the product of the company. Hello and welcome a Adriaan. Good to have you on the show.

Adriaan van Rossum (01:11):

Well, thanks a lot for having me.

Nina Müller (01:12):

Thank you for being here. Would you like to give a brief introduction of who you are and tell us a bit more about yourself?

Adriaan van Rossum (01:18):

Yes, a 100%. Yeah. So I'm indeed the founder of Simple Analytics. I live in beautiful Amsterdam, as you said, and yeah, I've done many things, but yeah, the things next to business, I always like to talk a bit about it. I love to do kite surfing. I love to make our home smart. My girlfriend doesn't love it that much all of the time, but yeah, I love to do a lot of sports and stuff like that. But yeah, I also love privacy and that's why I started Simple Analytics.

Nina Müller (01:59):

Tell us more about this. What is your professional background and what gave you the idea for Simple Analytics?

Adriaan van Rossum (02:05):

Yeah, it started when I was 16. At the age of 16 I started to develop websites and my brothers, they showed me how to do it if I had any questions and I got a real big interest in building those, and that never really stopped. I started studying, but yeah, that was not really my thing. So after literally nine studies, I decided to finish one fast and then just continue with things that I loved and that was building a business. So I started a few businesses along the road and eventually I was with my girlfriend in the Canary Islands. It was in, I think it was rif, and I was there also a bit working for a client of mine. I did some freelance work and I needed to instal Google Analytics, and I was saying to her, yeah, I don't really feel comfortable by installing Simple or installing Google Analytics all the time. And then she said, yeah, you build projects all the time, so why don't you build something for that? And that's where I started. So basically three months later, the first version of Simple Analytics was born, and then I already got some paying customers and I was like, oh, this is really something that people are interested in. And it was also the same year that the GDPR came into effect. So it was 2018, so the timing couldn't have been better. But yeah, that's a bit of a background of why I started Simple Analytics.

Nina Müller (03:45):

That's a great story. Very innovative and very brave just to do things. I love that approach and really to be passionate about something and going for it, this is not what everybody would do. So I'm really into that, but tell me more. Why privacy? Why did you go on Google Analytics and wonder about and reflect on this? Because so many websites are using it without thinking about it, or at least they're using it anyway because it's convenient, it's cheap, it's there. What was it that really made you reflect on this, that this is wrong, and why was this an invasion of your privacy?

Adriaan van Rossum (04:36):

Yeah, this also goes back quite a bit. I think also to the age of 17 or something. When I was building those websites, I started seeing, I saw the limitations of the web and especially limitations regards to security and privacy. And at that time there was not really so much going on regarding privacy. Everything that you could think of was possible on the web.

(05:07):

So there was this little bug in the internet explorer that I love to talk about is the way that you could copy the clipboard of a visitor. So let's say you are in your email client, you typing an email, but you want to copy it to a different version. So you copy the text and you paste in a new email and in between you visit my website or after, and you visit the website and then this website could copy the stuff that you had on your clipboard, which is a massive invasion of privacy at the same time. Also a security issue. I would say

Nina Müller (05:44):

Absolutely, I had no idea, I didn't know about this.

Adriaan van Rossum (05:47):

This was possible, and I learned about this because I was developing in the web. So yeah, you learn those tricks of the trade. So that's also where I started thinking, if you can do this, what else can you do? There's so much possible, and I think that's a big advantage that you can have as a developer because what is technically possible. So then you probably know what other businesses can do with your visits or with your data or with your behaviour on the web. And that's also where I started doubting Google and Facebook and those platforms with all the buttons that are basically massive trackers of user data and how you visit the web. So at that time I started to think about it a bit more, but I didn't give it that much thought, but I kept it as an interest for the whole time. And then more and more news came out of big data companies, I think it was a few years ago. And then yeah, it really started to get to me and I was like, Hey, why not start something that's really good for the planet and for the people on it and make something that's better for it?

Nina Müller (07:16):

Were you aware of all the consequences that it may have other than when the example that you gave is a very drastic invasion of privacy, obviously, and everybody knows, okay, when people can read my emails without knowing me about it and their sensitive information in it, the negative consequence is there obviously. But using Google Analytics and the long-term consequence negative effects, it can have that. It can have effects on who owns and access your data, accesses your data, and who can have potentially access to your data, very sensitive information that it can have negative impact on your next job application or a loan that you apply for or an apartment or renting out a new apartment, things like that. Were you aware of that at that time or because I'm not sure if there were the stories around at that time, but I would like to hear from you if you dug deeper.

Adriaan van Rossum (08:25):

Well, not around the time when I was 17, there was not really, I'm now 33. There wasn't really a talk about that. But yeah, I think those profiles, I think that was the first time that I really heard about, okay, there is something being done behind all those websites. So profile building was something that Facebook also did, but also Google of course, and it wasn't that much that it would end up with a potential landlord that could check that information. It's more about what happens when it goes wrong or comes in the hands of someone that wants to do evil. And I think that's for me, the main driver for privacy is that if it's in good hands, it's probably not a problem. If it's in your own hands, it's also not a problem. But if it's in the hands of someone that wants to do bad, then you have a problem.

(09:32):

So it's not that much related to really seeable things. Like for example, copying an email is something that everybody can understand what is happening, but building a social profile, what is that? What do you do then? Or how can it help you? Those questions are way more difficult to understand, and I think it's never completely clear how those profiles can be used, for example. But for me, it's more important that we say, okay, all this data, I gave it to a platform. So it's my data, and I think that's what the GDPR and lower regulations in the world are trying to solve, and I think that's the right way to go.

Nina Müller (10:20):

I agree. Yes, I think so too. Thank you for this, Ian. So let us go back now to Simple Analytics. Tell us how it works, what features it has, what makes it privacy first, how you go on about this, just brag about,

Adriaan van Rossum (10:43):

Well, I love this part. So when I started Simple Analytics, it was even more simple than it is now. So we had a long way to go. So it's almost four years, I think September somewhere, or actually I think it's in three days or four days. We are obviously four years old.

Nina Müller (11:07):

Oh, congratulations.

Adriaan van Rossum (11:08):

Thank you. Thank you. We'll get some champagne somewhere. But yeah, so it started with a very simple chart. So the chart showed the amount of page views, it showed a few tables with the referrals pages where people are on in the countries, and that was already something that a lot of people enjoyed using. But of course we got a lot more customers and we also asked about those or asked those customers like, Hey, what features do you want? And we have a public roadmap so people can vote on certain features that they want. So we are adding way more features every time, and basically you can do as much as you can do with Google Analytics except for the tracking part. So there's a few parameters or metrics that Google Analytics can calculate based on tracking. So for example, an important metric from Google is bounce rate.

(12:17):

You need an amount of sessions that are on the website and then you can say, okay, this is the bounce rate with sim tics, we can't do this, so we need to make clever ways to still get valuable information. So one of those ways is, for example, the time on page we try to be a bit smarter than Google is. So for example, when you visit a webpage in Google and five minutes later you go to a different website in a different tab, and then you are, I don't know, watching Netflix for an hour and you go back to this first website, Google's things that you visited this website for one hour and five minutes, which is obviously not true because you're watching Netflix. So what we do is then we detect if the webpage is open and if someone hides the webpage. So by going to a different tab, then we just stop the counter. So then we know, okay, someone is not looking at the page, it's not included in the time on page. And there's a few other things.

(13:27):

The choices that Google makes with Google Analytics is sometimes a bit weird, but we have to live with it because people compare us with Google Analytics. So we need to do a bit of learning for our customers to, let's say for example, those time on page metrics. That's something that in Google is way higher. Yeah, that's obviously higher because they calculate also when you're not on the page. So there's some stuff that you need to learn your customer, like, Hey, you see this number now, but it's more correct than the one of Google. And once you say this to people or you show it in the dashboard, they say like, oh yeah, this is indeed way better. Why isn't Google doing this? And stuff like that. So it's also really fun to have this challenge of how can you still get valuable metrics without tracking people?

(14:25):

And I think that's also one of the Unix selling point of simple analytics is we never track people and a lot of our competitors are doing it for only one day. But yeah, I don't believe that the GDPR is saying anything related to like, Hey, it's okay to track a person for one day and if you drop the cookies then it's fine. No, it's just about not tracking at. So exactly that's how we do it at least. And that's a bit odd that we are the only one doing it like that. We've seen one other business in the last few years that did it as well, but it didn't became that popular. So yeah, we are doing it a bit different, I would say. And yeah, what is also a challenge for us is keeping the balance between adding new features and keeping it simple because we love what people say about a tool. They just go to a tool and you say, I'm not overwhelmed with all the data, I just see a few numbers. Those are important to me. And I see if my blog post is working and I can just close the tab and I'm not overwhelmed. And I think that's one of the biggest perks of Simple Analytics is that it's simple to digest and it's still super privacy, privacy friendly.

Nina Müller (15:47):

I think it's sometimes the hardest part is to keep it simple and straightforward a 100%, especially when so much and when all the things that are possible and you want to offer the best and now most features, but you want to enable the customer to use what they want to need and require on the other side, keep it as simple and straightforward as possible. I think it can be hard to find a balance, but

Adriaan van Rossum (16:22):

Yeah, it's also fun. You can also build it for two groups of people, for people that really want to have the simple version and people that want to do some more advanced stuff. And you can in the UI, hide the advanced stuff from the normal user. And then, I don't know, if you click a button, you'll see more options, for example, a little thing, but then the UI is still simple to digest, but advanced user can still search through all the data or filter on data or stuff like that. So I think it's a challenge to make it work, but it's super fun to see that it works for both type of people.

Nina Müller (16:59):

I think it's odd gets something to do with the business size, larger businesses who want more insights, who might also have a larger budget to spend on this, and small web shops or marketplace who still want to see some who's visiting their site and not who specifically obviously, but a counter how many per day and what they're doing there just to get an idea what are my best products? And

Adriaan van Rossum (17:35):

Yeah, I think that's also the last group of people to switch is e-commerce businesses. They rely so much on conversions and what campaign works best and what still can be linked to what campaign. So I think for them it makes the most sense to not obey the law. I would say it's not good, but it makes more sense for them than for an information website of the government, let's say.

Nina Müller (18:05):

Yeah. Which leads me directly to my next question. Why would I as a business choose your service over free analytics tool, especially when I'm working on a tight budget? What is, apart from all the USBs and the advantages that you already talked about, what is behind it? How do I turn to creating a willingness to buy Simple Analytics to spend money to increase my budget for this?

Adriaan van Rossum (18:50):

Yeah, so first of all, there's the law. So if you want to obey the law, there's less choice left. So for example, Google Analytics is being blocked or forbidden by the GDPR based on the data that's being transferred overseas, the personal data. And a lot of governments are already saying, or privacy agencies are already saying, Hey, it's forbidden in our country. So every country in the EU will probably follow. We already have Austria, France, Italy, Denmark, not completely. Denmark is then forbidden the Google workspace. So it is getting there. So if you want to do something legal, then you need to pick a different option than Google Analytics. So then the next question is why should you pay for a service when there's also free services? And yeah, if you don't really care about the data of your visitors and you don't really care about privacy at all, then go for a free version because free versions are fine if you don't really care about that stuff.

Nina Müller (20:14):

Yeah, I think you pay with your customer's data in the end.

Adriaan van Rossum (20:17):

Exactly.

(20:19):

Yeah. So they need some data. A great example is Google Analytics data being used for Google Ads. They can internally use the data from your visitors of your website. So for them, it's a great amount of data that they can use for their ad business. And their ad business is I think 95% more or less of their revenue. So for them, it makes a lot of sense to have a free product that's used by so many people for something else in their business to help them with. But as a customer, I think you have the option to choose something that's good for your visitors or not.

(21:08):

Again, if you don't really care about your visitors, then it doesn't really matter what you do, but if you do care about your visitors and you do care about your own brand and you do care about how your brand is perceived by different customers or visitors, then it makes sense to make some or choose something in favour of them. And so yeah, you already said it. If it's free, then you are the product. So someone else makes money off the free product. So yeah, that's definitely an issue. And I also think it's really important that you own the data. So it's your visitors, it's your visitors, so why would you give that information to some different party that goes on with that information and does whatever they want with it? I think that's something that you can't really sell anymore within your team.

Nina Müller (22:05):

No, and it's also your responsibility. It's a responsibility towards your company and towards your customers too.

Adriaan van Rossum (22:13):

Yeah, yeah. So if you take your business seriously, you'll pick something that is probably paid and then there's still a lot of options to choose from. So do you really care about a lot of privacy or do you care a little bit about privacy? There's different grades in that area. We also wrote a blog post about the five or four or five most privacy tools. So people can pick a bit or select a bit on the scale of privacy and features, because that's usually the difference, the amount of data points or metrics that you collect at one side and the other side, the much privacy you want to get. And I think Simple Analytics is definitely very much on the scale towards privacy and less towards the amount of data points. One feature for example, is also that you can disable certain metrics. So let's say, oh, I don't want to get the user agent, I don't want to get the browser version. I don't want to get, let's say a session id. You can all limit those and say, okay, don't collect those at all.

Nina Müller (23:26):

So with all your work that you do, it can be a huge challenge sometimes from the business developing side, but also from the feature and product side to keep a balance there and to foster sustainable growth and amplify your message that you're sending with building a company and a product that you do with Simple Analytics. So with all the challenges that are lying ahead, who do you turn to for advice?

Adriaan van Rossum (24:10):

And I like that question, and to be honest, I have a few different ways. I have close friends that I have some, let's say I had a wedding two weeks ago from one of my best friends and I gave him a speech and his wife of course speech was also about being ethical or a short part of it. You don't want to be speaking about that subject on a wedding all the time. But one of the things that I go to him for is ethical advice. And I told him, you are one of those persons that we'll say if you're bullshitting them and you need those people because if I'm saying like, Hey, I want to do this with my business and I think cookies are kind of need it, and I would go to him, he'll probably say, yeah, that's the whole reason of your business. That's a bit silly to suggest that or something not as black and white as cookies versus no cookies.

(25:21):

And I think you need those people in your life that you can connect with on a level that they say, okay, what you're saying right now is incorrect or this wouldn't be you from my perspective. And I think those people are amazing and for business advice in different areas, it's really good to surround you with people that are further than you. So if some people in your life start a group, I don't know, WhatsApp group or Signal or Telegram, connect with them and make sure you can ask them your questions that arise in your business because they already have done a business before and they are very skilled at it. So learn from those people. So always get a few people in your life that are already further than you regarding a business and ask their advice. And then still, it's still advice. So the big challenge with advice is what are you taking or what advice are you willing to follow up and what advice are you not following up? That's still your own choice. But yeah, I think it's good to get advice from people that are ahead of you.

Nina Müller (26:41):

Yes, I agree. You also with Simple Analytics only have just joined the Ethical Commerce Alliance, our growing network as a partner, which we are thrilled about. So do you expect to receive advice there as well?

Adriaan van Rossum (27:05):

Yeah, that might happen. Yeah, a 100%.

Nina Müller (27:07):

In exchange with other partners or in the messages and blogs and activities that we share, the upcoming panel discussion in October.

Adriaan van Rossum (27:17):

And I think it's good to surround you with businesses that are also a bit similar because there's so many different ways you can run your business, and sometimes it is just one comment from someone saying like, Hey, why don't you do this? And then you think, oh, that's actually a great idea, and then you do it. And that happens more with similar businesses where at least the ethics or the values are aligned.

Nina Müller (27:47):

For me, it's sometimes not even, oh, that's a great idea, I can pick that up. But sometimes it's just exchanging with people talking about, well, in the field of data ethics and privacy, everything about data of ethics and privacy and just exchanging news in-depth knowledge sparks my creativity usually. And to find inspiration in exchanging with people on certain topics like talking with you or all the podcasts that I did have funded amazing, all the information that people are so willingly share all my guests that I had, I'm so grateful for this and hope that our audience, our listeners will find some inspiration in this too. And yeah, this is what I think what also does creativity is all about speaking and making. It's not reinventing the wheel, but it's picking up a new idea that is new to you and making it your own style and your own way. A bit like what you do with Simple Analytics, with having this itch, this concern, this itch just scratched the concern that you have and think like, no, we really need to do something about this. And you just sat down and develop something out of nothing,

(29:30):

Which is amazing.

Adriaan van Rossum (29:31):

Yeah, I think it can be inspiration for many as well to just see you can do something that's still ethical and you can still make a profitable business from it. Usually something that's being seen as, oh, but if you're ethical, you will lose money. That's not always the case. You can also be ethical and make it your business.

Nina Müller (29:57):

No, exactly. And this is what we're doing in the ethical commercial lines too. We put ethics at the top of the agenda of everything because this is what we see too, that ethical considerations are thrown overboard when looking at the budget, the first thing that are thrown away. Why? Because they think, or many people or businesses tend to think that this is something they can avoid or that they don't stress the importance because I think oftentimes it is overlooked by long-term negative effects it can have in the case of analytics tools and the use of cookies and trackers and the whole privacy issue, I think it is easily overlooked that spying on people, tracking people without their consent or even sometimes without their knowledge erodes trust. And how do you want to convince people to buy from you when they don't trust you, when they cannot trust you or when they have concerns about what happens to the data.

Adriaan van Rossum (31:21):

And the more people that ask those questions to those businesses as well, the more customers ask those questions, the more those businesses will see it's important

Nina Müller (31:35):

And the more will adopt to that, I think.

Adriaan van Rossum (31:36):

Yeah, exactly. Because sometimes you miss a bit as a business, I guess the need because the customer is not asking for it. And I think if a customer is more vocal about it, then that would help making a case within the business to make it more privacy friendly.

Nina Müller (31:56):

But for this, the people need to know the individuals, the customers need to know what's happening, need to have a certain awareness. For now, the cookie banner are designed not for people, but just for the businesses to be able to comply with the baseline GDPR, but no one can read them and no one has to read them because they don't give you the full picture or what happens to your data in the end. Also, they are written in a very legal way, so it's not really understandable. But what it means is that individuals are left alone with their privacy because privacy is a private matter, but I think they're left to deal with it on own without being able to find lots of reliable information. This is currently changing. We see a lot more being talked about it, we talk about it. But if more businesses offered trustworthy solutions, how can bear standards be created more easily and understandably, and raising more awareness for the negative consequences of privacy violations?

Adriaan van Rossum (33:05):

So how can we avoid or show the negative consequences?

Nina Müller (33:11):

Yeah, I mean, I think we, people just need to know better what's happening to their data. In order to be able to make better decisions.

Adriaan van Rossum (33:21):

Yeah, it's funny, the cookie banner, for example, is one of those ways to show what's going on, but it's more of an annoyance to everybody than that. It's really helping people. Now we know that cookies are being set, but basically we know that every website is now selling cookies and you have an annoying cookie banner with everybody, or I know 70% of the people clicks Yes, because the no is so much hidden.

Nina Müller (33:47):

Exactly. Yeah. But I think we can just do better if we, Simple Analytics does avoid this and avoid the use of trackers. And so we have a lot less cookie information. Then you just need to tell the visitors of your website to what cookies are in place and what they're used for, which can be done in three, four simple sentences that is understandable to everybody. And then you can just click, okay, or I accept this very simple and straightforward and just getting rid of all that data and all the trackers.

Adriaan van Rossum (34:31):

Yeah, there's definitely a lot to gain there, and I think we'll get there eventually. But what it already did is that so many people are now talking about cookies or about the cookie banners and about tracking, and before no one was really aware of that. So I think regarding that, it really succeeded in getting more attention to itself. I think that's great. I think that the next step can be that we don't really want a cookie bench anymore. As a business, we start to think about, okay, how can we do our business without those annoying cookies? And I think more and more businesses are doing that. We see a lot of customers in also weird, not to say weird, but in areas where you don't really expect because you would expect a government or you would expect a lawyer organisation or those customers when they sign up, it makes sense.

(35:37):

But if a business, like a car lease business or a Gamble website, those are also customers. And that's something where you think like, okay, why is that? So if we ask that, then there are some awareness within the company and mission saying like, Hey, we really want to have the best products for our customers and our visitors, which means that we also don't track them. And I think that's the way to go if business see those values, see the value for their own visitors, and also they're very loud about it. They share it on the website in the filterer, you can read their statement about what they think is important for their visitors. So they really make it something very positive. And then as a visitor, you see those badges or see those sentences and you think like, okay, they really care about me as a business, so I would rather do business with them than with something else.

(36:42):

At the same time, I think a lot of people are also just buying something without really thinking. And those customers or those visitors, I don't think they will change a lot in the foreseeable future, but for that, we have regulations. So we really need to change those companies forcibly. And some companies already take the lead and start doing it, which is awesome because if you're the first, you are taking the bigger market instead of if you do it at the end and you are forced to do it, then it doesn't give you any positive PR like it will do when you start.

Nina Müller (37:29):

No, I think the competitive advantages and the reputation go hand in hand. Speaking of regulation, and this will be my final question. In recent case in Denmark, Anand and retailer was fine by data protection authorities for failing to delete a customer account, which the customer had frequently requested, and then turned in the end, turned to the Danish data protection authorities who in turn back to the beginning find the retailer. So when I read this, one thing that I first noticed is, or that first thought like, okay, there are ways to fight back reported reporting it to the authorities can have an effect even for individuals.

(38:31):

And the other thing that I would like to ask you about how, I mean, this is one case in many, I mean, I think I personally have more than one story to similar like this, where I had problems of having my accounting leader, having my data deleted from someone. I never gave consent to using metadata in the first place. But this happens so often, and there are numerous reasons of failing to do this. One of the things that I suspect has happened is that a lot of plugins and a lot of analytics tools were in use. Who in turn had access to that customer data and made use of the data. And I think this was the problem, I think, I don't know for sure. So this isn't the assumption that I made that this made it next to impossible for the retailer to delete that data completely and forever. So I would like to ask you, what do you make of that? And if you had a customer or maybe you have or people or businesses interested in acquiring Simple Analytics, what do you recommend? How do you speak with them about this issue and how can we avoid this?

Adriaan van Rossum (40:12):

Avoid it as a business or as a customer?

Nina Müller (40:15):

No, from the business perspective, if you from Simple Analytics had a potential customer or customers with a similar issue or similar problem say like, okay, we want to avoid this in the future, what can we do or how do you deal with this?

Adriaan van Rossum (40:34):

With Simple Analytics, it is easy because we build our own software and we are able to build our own software. So we are really the owners of the data. So the data of our visitors, of our customers and the visitors of their customers, the visitors of our customers, they are all stored within the Netherlands on our servers. So we have a few servers, they're all encrypted, and there is where the data is of our customers. So if a customer says like, Hey, I want to delete my account, it's just a push off the button, and we start deleting their data. And it's for us a fairly simple process because we are the owner of those servers. So the services that we use, and I think if you, for example, have a web shop and you have an SEO, you have a sales plugin, you have social plugins, you have so many different plugins that you have no clue what is really happening in those plugins.

(41:45):

I think it's the business owner that first need to evaluate, okay, what tools are we actually using and how much value does it provide? Does it provide a lot of value? Check what's going on in those tools? And if it doesn't say, just email them and ask them like, Hey, how do you handle personal data? You also have the DPA, the data agreements for that. But I think it's more important to ask you yourself the question, if it's not needed or not critical, just remove it. It's probably better to not have that plugin if it just adds a little bit of value. So make sure that you use as less services as possible and try to find those businesses that are open to privacy. And there's many really have the options. You can either choose already the continent. So if you go for Europe, you know that the rules here are a bit stricter.

(42:53):

So a European company is probably better regarding privacy. Make sure that if a customer contacts you about deleting something, that you will do everything in your power to delete it. And we also sometimes have a customer saying something very threatening like, Hey, if you didn't delete my data and you still have this email, and then we show them we don't have this email, and now you're sending us more data, so now we delete your email again. But yeah, make sure to not email us again because it's adding data to our system that we don't need and don't want, and it's really delete it, but people don't really always trust it. And that makes total sense because so many businesses say, Hey, we delete your data and it's still there. We have proper systems in place to delete it. So yeah, with us it's not a problem.

(43:52):

But that's again, because we own the systems and we have a web shop that's very difficult. So try to find the shop that's maybe not the most convenient to use, but it's the best in privacy, and you will have maybe less analytics on who is visiting your shop, but maybe you should change your KPI to the amount of sales that you get and link the campaigns that you do online to those sales and maybe do one month with one campaign and the other month with another campaign and compare it that way. There's so many ways to run your business in a different way that's more privacy friendly. So yeah, definitely a lot of options to go for. And yeah, I would say make profit not the number one reason to have your business try to add some value to the world and not just making the most of money.

Nina Müller (44:51):

That is the perfect ending, a Adriaan of our conversation. Thank you.

Adriaan van Rossum (44:57):

You're welcome. Thanks for having me. It was really, really fun to talk with you.

Nina Müller (45:03):

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed it, tell your friends about us. Follow us on Twitter and Ethical Allies, or find out more at Ethical Alliance Co.

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